After 20, 30 Years Playing: Ahead or Behind?

Discussion in 'Beginner Zone' started by Grizzoola, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. Grizzoola, Jul 5, 2013

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    Several, if not many, posts on here are by people saying they started playing in the '60's, etc., and are still playing. I've only started playing craps at live tables last Oct. Twenty sessions to date. I'm comfortably ahead. But, w/ statements that in the long-term, due to HA, everyone is doomed to lose, I'm curious how long-term players have fared. I know in the grand scheme of "long-term," even 30 years may be short-term. Still, the experience of these "long-term" players would be interesting to read. I'm not asking for details. Just, how long you've been playing & whether you are ahead or behind.

    I welcome even those who've played 10 years, etc. Maybe it's just a feeling more than actual figures, since over a long time, actual figures may be hard to come by. Anyway, is the prediction true for you, or not? You don't have to detail your strategies, methods, money management, etc. It may be helpful to know if you are a random roller or a DI.
     
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  2. falcon, Jul 6, 2013

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    If what you are currently doing is successful, then the experiences of others regardless of their terms of play should have no bearing on how you personally approach the game. The "long term" is a fantasy; the HA as regurgitated by the 'establishment' players is a fantasy and all of the "math" these folks produce is truly meaningless in a random game like craps. Do not be like them. You need to dictate your play in your comfort zone.

    falcon
     
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  3. Grizzoola, Jul 6, 2013

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    You're right, falcon, thanks for helping me keep my head straight. I keep going to the tables, thinking, "the hammer is about to fall," but so far I've been pretty lucky, & as you say, to each his/her own. One session I can lose my loss limit; next session I can win it back & then some. Never change my strategy, just do what I'm comfortable with & let the dice have their say.
     
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  4. falcon, Jul 6, 2013

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    Great attitude. Keep your play simple and have fun. That always seems to work.

    falcon
     
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  5. The Comeback Kid, Jul 6, 2013

    The Comeback Kid

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    You're asking the wrong question.
    If someone has been playing for 30 years they've come to learn the golden rule. It's not about the money. Oh, the money's nice for without it we'd be dead in the water unable to continue. But there's something else at play here and if you're not focused on the money, you'll discover it sooner.

    There's no other game at the casino where they give you the item of chance. They allow you hold the dice, and ask you get to toss it. How cool is that! Whether you perceive it or not, you now have direct control over the outcome, even with all the randomness built into the game.

    Go back to that 35+ uninterrupted roll. How did you feel?
    Empowered
    Top of the world
    Full of yourself
    Energy Aligned
    Lucky
    Loving life
    Abundant
    Generous
    Tapped in
    Tuned in
    Turned on
    It is the most powerful feeling you can have with your clothes on. Next to that, a pile of money is a paltry thing indeed - or perhaps just a means to get that feeling glorious feel back.
     
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  6. Dave73, Jul 7, 2013

    Dave73

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    It seems most players love to talk about their winnings, but rarely mention when they lose. Id say most have probably lost more than they have won. Me personally, I have only been playing a year and half, and Im definitely down even though I have had some great winning sessions.

    From my limited experience, I have found that I was up and some point almost every session. Sometimes that was 2 minutes in, sometimes it was 60. I agree with falcon, the game is too random to make absolute statements that you will lose in the long run due to the HA. Casual, and even serious players are not there for the long run, only the casino is. Players are just there, hoping to jump on one of the countless streaks that favor their style of play.
     
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  7. SevenOut, Jul 7, 2013

    SevenOut

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    I have been playing Craps before Las Vegas was on my Kansas Map. I actually designed the Craps Table while dealing Hazard in Deadwood to Wild Bill and other unsavory people I will not mention. My game plan has been worked on and fine tuned since I was 4 or 5 years old with Monopoly Dice during the Depression, Depression of 1868 that is and when a pair of dice could get you knocked off for cutting into the unofficial Gambling Crowd "tithing board" in old Chicago. Al, in Chicago was a Craps partner with me, when he was not in court and I was 34 years old in the 11th Grade.

    Now that you know my long experience in the game, duration of a very long life and developed the layout you see at every US Casino and modified a bit for the Brits, cause I like their accent... I have Never LOST money at the table.

    And... check my references. I am sure there is some other lying SOB to confirm all of the above facts. Maybe Falcon or Pam. Matter of fact. When Las Vegas was being built in Kansas, I beat them so bad that I bought the whole stinking Casino, four bars and two out houses and bought some worthless real estate in Nevada because there was a small, fresh water spring to "launder all of my Cash winnings" and moved them all on the Union Pacific Rail Road in two weeks. In the process of traveling for a week on the UPRR, we made stops every hundred miles to water and coal up the engine across the west, cleaned out entire towns of their hard cash (gold and silver in those days) and bought the entire stinking Cattle Industry coming up from Texas into Wyoming.

    And if you have a hard time swallowing all of this Cow Pattie "double" Sandwich for the Gullible... we are going to get along very well.

    Good luck, run when you can... and tell rudeboy99 living in a solid silver, two story Airstream outside the city limits of Reno, Nevada... Steaks are on the House! He is an old pal of mine and has been known to deal Craps in Reno AND play Craps in Sparks, Nevada AT THE SAME TIME, using his confusing game of RudyTudy and has never LOST any money playing Craps, as well.

    I would mention Grizoola, but with all of the wild women still looking for him, he in the Witness Protection Program and has never LOST at Craps, nor piddly winks. Each winning is tattooed down his right arm, down his side to his right big toe. Ask and he will show you. He will also vouch for my story. If not... get a photo of him and an address, contact Lola Sumptuous at the Sands... he will change his story real quick!
     
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  8. Grizzoola, Jul 7, 2013

    Grizzoola

    Grizzoola Member

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    :p Geezus, 7Out. This is called the "Beginner's Zone." Apparently, to you, this is a dumb question. I thought this was a place for that on this board. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. As a beginner, w/ all the talk about losing in the long-term & w/ people like you playing over many years, I expected people to just tell me whether they're ahead or behind after all that time. I'm not sure whether I'm the fool or you are. :down:
     
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  9. Dave73, Jul 7, 2013

    Dave73

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    IMO, a lot of the guys who talk about HA and losing in the long term like talking theory more than they like the idiosyncrasies of the game and its players.

    Theory and mathematics tell you what SHOULD happen, but they cant tell you what WILL happen.
     
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  10. falcon, Jul 7, 2013

    falcon

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    Hey Grizz, 7Out is taking a creative writing class so he can have enough credits to apply for his GED. His narrative is part of a required project to produce a "tall tale." That is why the post is in the "Beginner's Zone."

    falcon
     
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  11. falcon, Jul 7, 2013

    falcon

    falcon Member

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    Dave73: They are the"establishment" and winning for them ONLY happens with the "long" or "hot" shooter, otherwise, their exits are unremarkable and lighter in the wallet. Their "math" is based on "expectations," the "long term," low "vigs, and the fantasy associated the HA of the PL. If you take them seriously, you fuel their illusions.

    falcon
     
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  12. Grizzoola, Jul 7, 2013

    Grizzoola

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    This makes sense & what others have suggested. I guess it boils down to what YOU experience, not what the math says. Like I say, so far so good. Just wondering when the negative math starts kicking in, but that may be a worthless concern. Just as thinking this good luck goes on forever for me. As someone said, this is a random game. It's just that I've never gambled before. (Well, the occasional lottery ticket, which I've learned since reading about craps, has horrible odds. I've quit buying lottery tickets. Sooner a $5 pass line bet than a lottery ticket.) Then, of course, there's the fun and action of a live table.
     
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  13. SevenOut, Jul 7, 2013

    SevenOut

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    You are probably correct about my doing some creative writing. I thought it a good example of sarcasm. Lets reconsider some of the previous statements...and past statements.

    Playing AFTER 20, 30 years? Statistically you will ALWAYS... always be a LOSER over time. The more time "invested" playing Craps works against you, because of the built in House Advantage. Even if the house had NO ADVANTAGE, they have "unlimited bankroll" and you will be a loser if you cannot match their bankroll. Once your bankroll is lost, the House wins forever.

    Someone LIVING in Las Vegas or Nevada could have played at the Craps table for 20 to 30 years. Do they play one hour a day, six hours? Do they play once a month? Do they play Craps once a year for twenty years? Come on. Some of you put in more time at the front side of a Craps Table than I ever will in a lifetime. So YEARS HAVE NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER. The question is stink bait for the gullible.

    HOURS at play is more important. Years... you must understand how vague that means, I hope. Thus my original essay for the gullible.

    For maybe two years I had put in more time in front and behind the Craps Table. Since it was MY TABLE, I probably was ahead at that time. Otherwise, if you persist on playing Craps to be a long term winner... you had better come up with some creative writing. Skill or none. Today, I might play a grand total of no more than 12 hours at Craps a YEAR, if I am lucky to hold out that long with the $200 bankroll per session. A game might last 5 minutes, 30 minutes or two hours. Shorter periods of time are the rule. This is not a game that can be beaten in the Long Run. It is a Short Run, fewer hours exposed to the House Advantage and leave as a winner, game of chance. Once you return to the table from a previously winning session, the table WILL grind away any profits.

    I play to win, of course. The more time invested at the table, you might want to be getting paid as a Dealer, as you are going to be losing over the short and long haul.

    Beginner, Advanced or Stink Bait Gullible... We all will lose in the long run.
     
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  14. rudeboy99, Jul 8, 2013

    rudeboy99

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    Over the last 30 years, I'm WAY behind at the craps tables. A part of that related directly to the unfortunate fact that for 25 of those years, I was a legendary street alcoholic whose judgement 99% of the time was highly suspect. I have made some decent poker scores, and generally book a winning season betting football, at least for the last few years.
     
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  15. SevenOut, Jul 8, 2013

    SevenOut

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    I hope to finish the 12th grade before I am 35. No GED for me.

    Now to work. You know I respect all of you who deal on an even table with honest dice. Even those of you who stretch reality a bit, we all are capable of doing that, but someone will call you on it and want you to explain.

    I have spent MORE TIME WATCHING DEALERS deal AND PLAYERS play than my actual lifetime number of hours played pressed against the rails. I have never figured out how many hours I have played to now, but when you add it up... not too impressive as I understand how time will clean your wallet, your credit card and your checking account.

    If you have this urge to retire after a nights play... keep reading.

    Believe it or not, I see some interesting play in my years playing Craps and watching their chip counts. Many of these players can hit a streak and the green chips come piling into their rack, only to be LOST because they cannot teach their shoes to... RUN from the table while ahead. There is a feeling that just one more big run of numbers and I am out of here... and they leave losing it all and pockets empty.

    Quitting is just as important to me than time played. Time is not your or my friend at a Craps table. Your system may be refined and you know when to take advantage of a table paying off on your game... but the quitting is difficult. Once you can quit cold turkey after a hot winning game... YOU ARE THE MASTER AND LORD OF THE CRAPS TABLE.

    The stinking End.
    Thank you fellow Dice Runners.
     
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  16. falcon, Jul 8, 2013

    falcon

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    [quote author="SevenOut" date="1373273529"] Believe it or not, I see some interesting play in my years playing Craps and watching their chip counts. Many of these players can hit a streak and the green chips come piling into their rack, only to be LOST because they cannot teach their shoes to... RUN from the table while ahead. There is a feeling that just one more big run of numbers and I am out of here... and they leave losing it all and pockets empty.

    Quitting is just as important to me than time played. Time is not your or my friend at a Craps table. Your system may be refined and you know when to take advantage of a table paying off on your game... but the quitting is difficult. Once you can quit cold turkey after a hot winning game... YOU ARE THE MASTER OF LORD OF THE CRAPS TABLE.
     
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  17. kaysirtap, Jul 8, 2013

    kaysirtap

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    Show correct math that proves your statement or keep quiet please.
     
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  18. SevenOut, Jul 8, 2013

    SevenOut

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  19. Lifeisacrapshoot, Jul 9, 2013

    Lifeisacrapshoot

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    I've enjoyed reading this thread. SevenOut, you indeed sir, are one helluva hoot! I kinda get you. Maybe I'm a bit crazy, but who cares. This is all for entertainment purposes only, right? Well, I have to share my little secret with you all. I, too, am down, a lot this year. I love the game of craps. I've said that numerous times on the forum, BUT I have allowed this fascinating, exhilarating game to get to me. I have stopped playing craps as often as I used to. I don't post much anymore, but as you can see I still visit from time to time to see what's happening with everyone. Several wise men and 1 very wise and kind craps dealer once told me, or should I say, Warned me, "Don't get caught up". I heard him, but I did not listen as well as I thought.

    I had mixed feelings about telling too much here, but I feel the need to share at least a tidbit or two with the Newbies.

    I started playing craps a good 3 years ago. I first touched a craps table at The Tropicana Hotel and Casino in Vegas back in 1996 during Halloween week. I was there on business. I actually loved Blackjack back then and taught myself how to play and did pretty well, but only when I visited Vegas. I didn't concern myself with Craps until 2002 when I returned to Vegas, again on business and was shown around town with a friend who lived there. We went to Jerry's Nugget, one of my now favorite $2.00 and $3.00 tables casinos. The dealers tried to teach me, but I didn't quite grasp it, so I left it alone. Now jump ahead a few years to 2010. I was walking down the street in my old neighborhood and saw a big old white bus rolling down the street with an advertisement about the Horseshoe Casino and I quickly memorized the phone number. Later I called and found out I could go to the casino for free as long as I could show them $50.00 that I use for gaming. I figured, what the heck. One day I caught that bus and as they say, the rest is history.

    Can't quite end it there. I got to the casino on a Sunday afternoon and met some very friendly, funny dealers and a hilarious boxwoman who had me cracking up. That fun, comradery, laughs, newness won me over big time. I learned how to play that afternoon. I did not realize that I was hooked, but apparently I was. I didn't even see it coming. I actually liked the strategy and absolutely loved holding the dice in my hands and still do. I found myself setting the dice without knowing what I was doing. I had no idea what a "D.I." was. That day I saw some of the coolest, most stylish shooting/tossing. I was hooked and I didn't really care that much about the money. I didn't bet much back then. I just wanted to shoot the dice and learn as much as I could about this amazing game called craps.

    Jumping to the Fall of 2012. I learned about this forum. I finally got to read about some very interesting people, players, stories, highs and lows. I found my landing spot. I learned about dice influencing. I found out I was pretty good, sometimes I was truly blessed and was great. But now, after being too caught up and too embarrassed to tell anyone, I've lost a lot. I was in control and disciplined and was proud of that. I played very cautiously. But, I let others, at times, get into my head. I was told I was too superstitious, too careful, scared money don't make no money, and so on and so on. This year I started taking more chances and doing ok, but very slowly I started losing my discipline. Without going into the gory details, I have almost lost everything. I still have good credit, still have my home and my car, but I allowed myself to get caught up and not walk away the way I once had. I thought I could do it alone and handle it.

    I don't know how gamblers who are very successful do it. It's easier said than done to just always be in control, to always walk away, so how do they do it? I sure as hell wish I knew. Even though I love the game, sometimes I wish I'd never heard of craps. I am sorry if this is a downer for some, but I am telling my personal story. I have never heard a woman tell her story of loss or ongoing success at craps. There's always more to a story, but this was my short version. Believe me, I miss playing the way I used to. The last time I played, I had a $30.00 Free table play coupon and $60.00. I got to shoot the dice in 2 different sessions at the same table. I did ok, but I was not feeling myself, but wanted to shoot. I got a hit a few numbers, but was too afraid to bet because I couldn't afford to lose what little I had. That was the worst feeling I'd had in 3 years. I ended up losing everything. I got my comped meal and went home.

    I know there are some incredible players, shooters and strategists here, but as that nice dealer once told me, Don't get caught up. I am very grateful to so many of the guys who have said wonderful things to me and sent nice PM's. I want to say Thank You to everyone, but especially $nakeEye$ and his better half, Linda, EagleDice, Heavy, SevenOut, Frank Scoblete, Rudeboy99, 777, TheStoic, Mycoalsmith, DiceController, ImPlaya, Kaysirtap, Liman, Jason, Grizzoola and Jkluv7.

    Big ol' hugs,

    Lifeisacrapshoot (Pam)
     
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  20. falcon, Jul 9, 2013

    falcon

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    Do not have to; just ask Heavy as he posted that figure on his forum citing that the FO bet is the # 1 best bet on the table, and I will paraphrase, even though it loses 67% of the time. The Wizard has also stated similar losing stats. Perhaps you could enlighten all of us with your own "proof" of life and why you are not among the leaders of the "gullible bait." Whatever "math" you might produce is couched in the fantasy of HA, low "vigs," the long term, and the most elusive of all: "expectations."

    You and your dinosaur "establishment" pals need to wake up and look for new directions that might provide real enlightenment for profitable play.

    falcon
     
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