2 V set

Discussion in 'Dice Influencing' started by tercol58, Apr 15, 2012.

  1. tercol58, Apr 15, 2012

    tercol58

    tercol58 Member

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    I guess this could apply to any set but using the 2 v as an example does it matter where the 2s are as long as the set is made.
     
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  2. Southern-Comfort, Apr 16, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    My farvprite answer... yes and no.
    The idea behind the V sets (2 and 3's) is to eliminate one of the possible double pitches if the dice land on axis. As long as you see the V, that is accomplished. The only change is what numbers to expect to come up. The 2-V, by nature, is used to make the 4 and 10 more likely to come up on axis. Set the V oone way and that is accomplished completely, set the V the other and you throw 5 and 9 into the mix. Either way, the seven situation remains unchanged.
    With the 3-v set, its a difference between more 6 and 8, or adding 3 and 11 into the mix.
    In both cases, just set the V on top and see what you are seeing on the face you're looking at to see which group you are including.
     
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  3. TunicaBound, Apr 19, 2012

    TunicaBound

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    Where are you trying to land the dice when you the V sets?
     
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  4. Heavy

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    Typically I set the V-2 with the twos up and the one-three facing me - one on the left - three on the right. If the dealer sends the dice out to me with a five facing up I'll just flip the other die over so I have a pair of fives and set the six-four facing me - six on left - four on right. But that's MY preference for this set. The permutation of any dice set you use should be based on long run tracking of rolls on your practice station and in the casino. Use a program like BoneTracker - available for free download at www.crapsfest.com - to track your rolls, then use the permutation transposition function to compare results with different iterations of the set.

    Regarding landing zone - different strokes for different folks. I don't buy into the high arc theory except in rare cases. I much prefer a low, slow and easy approach, landing the dice within six inches of the back wall where they'll tumble forward and gently kiss the base of the wall where there are no diamond pips on the rubber. The type of toss you use will vary from table to table, depending on the type of layout, any underlay, condition of the table beneath the layout, etc,
     
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  5. $nakeEye$, May 10, 2012

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    NO it does not matter - this our ( Linda and my ) point cycle dice set -

    From the hardway set - with the 4's up and 5's facing me - I pitch the left die one rotation to the left -

    Bringing the 6 to the top -

    I now have 6/4 on the top / up side with 5/5 facing me -

    This puts the 2/2 ( 2V ) away from me - facing the target back wall !
     
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  6. Heavy

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    Well, yes. It does matter $nake.

    Set the dice with the 2V on top with the 1-3 facing . . . then set it with the 3-1 facing. Run your roll tracking in BoneTracker paying strict attention to which die (left or right) rolls what number. You'll get a different grouping of numbers for these two variants. As long as you keep the left die/right die orientation the same when changing sets it should now cause too much of a shift, unless you are using a mutant - say with the 6-3 facing instead of the 6-4. My favorite set is a V-3 mod with the 3-2 up and the 1-3 facing me. I get completely different results with that than I do with many of the other V-3 mutants. Again, that's why it is important to track in BoneTracker then utilize the transposition feature to find your "best set."
     
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  7. basicstrategy777, May 11, 2012

    basicstrategy777

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    If I had to believe 1 person on the subject of setting the dice it would be Steve Haltom.

    The 'believers' of this dark art are very fortunate to have him post here and lend his knowledge on this specific subject and the game in general.

    I don't know how long he will post here, and although I don't agree with 100% of
    what he says, I would say his knowledge is vast and he has a PHD on the game of craps.


    777
     
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  8. $nakeEye$, May 11, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    Initially I was looking to arrive at different dice sets via the hardway starting point of 4/4 up and 5/5 facing me - with speed and accuracy primarily my concern -

    I understand what you are saying when one or both dice go off-axis or yaw to the left or the right -

    Honestly, I have never investigated the possible outcomes of orienting the 2V set other than what I am accustomed to setting -

    Perhaps it would be a worthwhile investment to do so - possibly it would add longevity to my rolls -

    Thanks for the input -

    I will definitely look into this in more depth !
     
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  9. Heavy

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    SnakeEyes - you might also look into the Dominant Die Theory as relates to dice influence. Basically, it boils down to patterns of influence over individual dice. In my case, my left die is dominant - my right has a tendency to come out of my grip late, and that's where most of my single pitches, double pitches, and a fair share of my off axis results come from. Switching left die for right die - or using a mutant set that adjusts for the s/d pitches, may ultimately yield better results. Now, BoneTracker does not do a good job of recognizing same configuration mutants and you'll generally see identical SRR's setting that way. Even so, your actual numbers rolled will differ.
     
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  10. $nakeEye$, May 15, 2012

    $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Member

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    Heavy -

    That's a 1st for me regarding that phrase -

    I've been around the block at least once -

    And in ALL the info that I've digested - that particular phrase was never mentioned -

    Point me in the right direction, Sir , if you would be so kind !

    Now, as an aside , by others on this board - I have been falsely accused of not grasping / retaining / comprehending what I read -

    Ha !

    That's it , Folks !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    A reference to " Looney Tunes "
     
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  11. tercol58, May 15, 2012

    tercol58

    tercol58 Member

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  12. $nakeEye$, May 15, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    tercol -

    That's what I am referring to -

    The 2V set - equal distributation for ALL point cycle numbers - additionally the 7 also -

    I am still of the / my initial belief that the orientation of the dice is meaningless as long as the integrity of the set is maintained -

    It is a no matter whether the 2/2 is on the top , on the bottom , facing to or away from the shooter -

    What is of more importance is that the dice are endeavoured to be kept on-axis during their flight and touch-down - and landing -

    Hopefully, resulting in an on-axis result , or at worst a 1-off result - either way(s) -

    FWIW - my only reason to selecting the 2V over the 3V is that the 4 and 10 are more money makers potentially than the 6 and 8 -

    IF you can alter the occurance of the 4 and/or 10 for a 2-1 py-off as opposed to 6-5 pay-off on the 6 and 8 -

    Which road would you take ?

    Personally, I would go the 4/10 road - and accept the 6 and 8 - and also relish the 5/9 -

    Different strokes - for different folks !
     
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  13. Southern-Comfort, May 15, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    I can understand the natural feeling that if throwing two dice, one would be dominant. afterall, its proven that we all have dominant hands, legs, eyes, etc. However, I don't buy into the theory that the left or right die in a toss will be dominant of the other in a well made toss. Its not the grip nor toss that throws one, or both, off axis, but rather (Falcon, pay very close attention as I am now giving you a little ammo) its the backwall that generally causes off axis throws that otherwise were well made. Also, tossing them so that the dice hit a little sideways will cause them to alter course which can cause it as well.
    Just my opinion. Never really tested to see if one die or the other substantially goes off axis more than the other.
     
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  14. The Midnight Skulker, May 16, 2012

    The Midnight Skulker

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    If I understand the term my right die is dominant. My left die sometimes has a tendency to rotate one face around the vertical axis -- sorry, can't remember the official term for this (yaw?). Consequently, when I set one of the V's I'll put the V on top, then rotate the left die one face toward me so that the 2 or 3 is facing me. That way if that die does rotate around the vertical axis I still have only two sevens out of 16 otherwise on-axis results. Using the attached image (taken from http://casinogambling.about.com/od/craps/ss/dicesets_6.htm) I would rotate the left die to put the 1 on top and the 2 facing.
     

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  15. Southern-Comfort, May 16, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Could it be, perhaps, that your grip is not allowing for finger-length differences? Of your delivery is consistantly slanted toward the right? If not, then you do have a case for the dominant die theory. I guess I'm just more ambidexterous at craps than other things. Maybe thats where practice has payed off.
     
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  16. The Midnight Skulker, May 16, 2012

    The Midnight Skulker

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    I'm a roller, not a lobber. My preference is to shoot from the right hook. I hold the dice between my fingers, thus +|+/. Clearly my potential accuracy is less than it could be with a "more conventional" grip, but I held the dice this way in my pre-precision shooting days and so believe, perhaps naively, that I aroused no suspicion when I started trying to keep them on axis. The rotation I described is due to too much pressure exerted on the left die (between my index and middle fingers), causing it to stick to one of them and rotate before starting to tumble.
     
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  17. $nakeEye$, May 16, 2012

    $nakeEye$

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    I recently saw a shooter use that particular grip -

    Either in AC or the Pa Poconos -

    Not a " usual " grip style !

    P.S. - Last Sunday or Monday in AC - now that I recall!
     
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  18. Southern-Comfort, May 16, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    You may want to try not letting go of the dice. Just hold them light enough to be able to start the toss, but light enough that at the end of the toss they just go on by themselves. Breaking the habit of letting go is the hard part. Learning the proper pressure to have thwem land where you want is the easy part.
     
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  19. Greatest 7 Shooter in the World, May 16, 2012

    Greatest 7 Shooter in the World

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    Yeah I like where this is going. For months now I have been practicing keeping one die on axis and not really being concerned with the other die and how it lands. surprisingly I have seen good results for what I was trying to do but live casino action will tell all tales.........
     
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  20. Southern-Comfort, May 16, 2012

    Southern-Comfort

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    Chipstacks and too many hands in the tub. I keep stacks of chips on my table at home to try and simulate casino conditions. But I leave out the hands, haven't figured out a semi-realistic way to implement them.
     
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